The Somatic Hound
Discovering how dogs and their humans can co-regulate, connect, and thrive together.
Episodes explore topics like canine body language, nervous-system regulation, biological fulfillment, and how dog behavior relates to emotional and physical health.
The podcast includes interviews with trainers, practitioners, and experts in areas such as neuro-biology, movement science, mindset coaching, raw feeding, and more—all with the goal of strengthening connection and understanding between dogs and their humans.
The Somatic Hound
Compassion, Connection, and Understanding: The Polyvagal Ladder with Cam and Ned Barclay
Guests for this podcast are brother and sister, Campbell and Nerida, who grew up immersed in the world of dogs at their family’s boarding kennels, where their mum bred and showed champion Borzoi and kept Staffies.
After finishing school, Campbell wasn’t sure what direction to take, so he traveled the world before settling into a decade-long career in finance. Realising this was not a fulfilling career, he reignited his passion for dogs and decided to make it his life’s work.
Campbell joined a mentorship program, and obsessively studied canine behavior, securing a job as a behavior trainer at Melbourne’s Lost Dogs Home. There, he assessed thousands of stray and surrendered dogs over three years, gaining invaluable hands-on experience in behavior work.
From those foundations, Campbell launched his own business: Act of Dog, specializing in fear, anxiety, and aggression cases. Today, he balances running his business with working at the RSPCA, helping post-adoption dogs and private clients with behaviour intervention. Campbell’s journey from finance to canine behavior showcases his dedication to improving the lives of dogs and their guardians.
Instagram handle: actofdog.com.au
Website: actofdog.com.au
Nerida Barclay, a Psychotherapist and Behaviour Support Practitioner. Nerida provides one on one counselling and family therapy for all ages however she specializes in working with young people in a fun and creative manner. Nerida also provides clinical based training and consultation to workers that engage with young people who experience mental ill health, and with young people who identify as LGBTIQPA+.
Nerida holds a bachelor of Social Work and a masters of Narrative Therapy and Community Work with sub training in behaviour based therapies. For over ten years she has assisted young people and their families to reconnect with storylines that represent their preferred identities, their communities and their values to life. In forming these connections Nerida believes that we can locate the resources we need to overcome mental health difficulties, let go of behaviours that are not serving us, challenge systems that hold us back and heal traumas and injustices.
Website: Tidal Therapy
Canine Movement Lab: Website
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Find me on Facebook: Leah Lykos
Hey you guys, I am so excited to release this episode of the Somatic Hound podcast because I'm interviewing Cam and Narita Barclay. They are brother and sister from Melbourne, Australia. I found Cam on Instagram, which is where I find almost all of my podcast guests, because he is sharing really great information about how to help shy, fearful, and reactive dogs. And that is also my specialty. So I've been really enjoying his content and kind of resonating with what he's sharing. Come to find out, his sister Narita is a psychotherapist trained in the types of somatic therapies that I've been informally studying and slightly obsessed with. So this conversation is all about the polyvagal ladder, which is derived from the polyvagal theory. And we are drawing the parallels between the dog's nervous system and our own nervous systems, and how both human and canines move up and down this polyvagal ladder through fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, or I call it freeze appease. There are four different states that we're talking about in this episode, along with the ventral vagal, which is the state of connection. So when you're not in a survival mode of fight, flight, freeze appease, then you can rest in this connected state of social engagement. I don't want to get too into the details because it's uh quite a long episode where we talk all about the subject. And I just wanted to give you that quick intro. And now I'm gonna let you get to it. Okay, hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of the Somatic Hound Podcast. I'm here with my friends Cam and Ned, and today we're gonna talk about nervous system responses. So Cam and Ned are coming to us all the way from Melbourne. You're in Melbourne, right? Yeah, we are.
Nerida Barclay:We're in Rosanna, Melbourne, Australia.
Leah Lykos:Okay, cool. So why don't you guys introduce yourselves, give a little bit of background, and then we can jump right into our conversation.
Cam Barclay:Okay, great. So my name's Cam, and I'm a I'm a trainer. So I've been working now with dogs for about uh four years. And I've worked through the um uh through a shelter in Melbourne uh for the last three years. And quite recently I've started a business about 12 months ago um working with private clients and I tend to work with uh dogs that um are showing signs of uh fear, uh anxiety, aggression, these types of cases.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, I'm Nered of Arclay, I'm Cam's sister, and I work with people. Um and we often yarn about our work because I'm a behavior support practitioner, also a psychotherapist, and I'm um very I've got about 20 years experience working in the mental health and psychosocial disability, and and uh more recently with people with autism and children with autism. And a lot of uh my approach and our business approach is to use um trauma uh-based theories and um practices to support positive behaviors.
Leah Lykos:Okay, awesome. This is actually the first time that I've had a professional who works with humans in mental health, which I've always wanted to combine these two subjects because I think they're very parallel because dogs also have a vagus nerve and have a lot of really similar responses when it comes to being stressed out or even reactive. There's like a menu of responses that the nervous system can go through. And actually, the way that Cam and I connected was one of your posts that you made on Instagram with a trainer showing dogs that I think we both felt were sort of shut down in a freeze response. And then we started having a little conversation on that post. And I think a lot of times trainers show dogs that are shut down, and people are mistaking that for uh being obedient or calm or having cured the aggression. Um so I think that's kind of where I want to start. If you guys want to chime in on that.
Cam Barclay:Yeah, I suppose um that Instagram post uh that we sort of had a few comments around, and Ned actually chimed in at the end of that uh post uh way back when. Um I think trainer is a loose term for this person. Um so you know, there's plenty of trainers out there, and there's behaviorists, and then there's veterinary behaviorists, and there's a raft of different experiences. Um, but there's a lot of that sort of compulsion training, I suppose you'd call it, where, you know, um there's someone on Instagram that looks pretty flashy and they basically just level out their dog. So they have a dog that they're working with, they'll provoke that dog, and then they'll use lead techniques um, you know, around the neck to sort of level out the dog and put them in some of the things we're going to talk about, maybe a shutdown state, maybe the dog tries to fight for a period of time, tries to flight, and then they have nowhere really to go. Um, and maybe they go into that sort of uh that sort of more freeze response, uh, etc. So, you know, it is um it is very flashy, uh, it looks great, um, and it looks like you get an immediate response, but I guess that's what we're gonna talk about today. What's really going on with the dog?
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, yeah. What is leveling out the dog?
Cam Barclay:Probably a term I just came out out with uh up with myself. Um, but it's basically it's it basically means um so you're putting so much pressure on the dog's neck, um, or you're you're you're using so much physical pressure uh that the dog try tries to exert some energy and then they get to the point where they've where they just have no energy left.
Nerida Barclay:So yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Cam Barclay:Or they've gone into a freeze possibly gone into a freeze to survive.
Nerida Barclay:So I guess yeah, I was I was actually saw that post and I thought it was quite interesting as well. And I I had a look at some of that um person trainer, I don't know if you call them a trainer, and yeah, there are some techniques that uh wouldn't be regarded uh in our field working with humans, and I don't think uh should be regarded with animals, they uh most likely do the opposite of healing a nervous system, so they're causing more trauma trauma. And um, although a dog can freeze in one state, that doesn't necessarily mean they're healing their nervous system, they will have more reactivity in other areas, in other contexts. It's not necessarily a sign, freezing is not a sign, or obedience is not necessarily a sign of healthy, um, optimal living.
Leah Lykos:Yes, and I just wanted to bring up another way that I've seen trainers do this is um not necessarily through the leash pressure, that really high collar pressure where they actually sometimes string the dog up or helicopter the dog. These are very old school techniques that I'm shocked when I'm still seeing them. Um I've certainly been to trainers way, way back, like 15, 20 years ago, that were doing these types of techniques, and I didn't really understand what I was seeing. Now that I'm understanding what is actually happening to the dog, it's appalling, frankly. Um, but I've also seen trainers do it with um simply like a muzzle combined with an e-collar, and you're taking away the dog's ability to, which Cam you were pointing out, the ability to flee and the ability to fight. And so then there are a couple other options on the menu, which is to freeze or appease. And so a lot of these dogs just totally shut down into a freeze state. Um, and that in no way indicates that there's a true emotional uh change in their emotional state. I mean, there's an there's a change, but in the wrong direction, it doesn't mean that they're going to respond to that stimulus differently moving forward. It just means we've removed their other options and so they're just trying to survive. Um so I think if we could elaborate just a little bit, because the appeasement is also really interesting, if we could elaborate on those responses a little bit, where people sometimes also mistake appeasement for friendliness or sweetness, and they think, oh, the dog is great because she's trying to lick my face or showing her belly. And so, like, I don't know, maybe in human on the human side, maybe we could talk a little bit about like what that appeasement uh behavior might look like.
Nerida Barclay:Well, actually, Kim and I were yawning a little bit about it, and um, they've done a lot of of research into this. I mean, uh reading uh different different books, different stories on people going to orphanages. That is a very um, that is a a place where you will see children who have experienced a lot of trauma who are fawning. So they'll come up and take your hand and and and you see it in class, teachers will see it in classrooms as well, um, where the child is so fawn or appeasing is a survival, adaptive survival mechanism. We use all of our resources to survive, whether we're fighting the bear, running away from the bear, or we're freezing, so the bear might not detect us and walk past, or we might throw some fish to the bear and hope that it you know it likes us and doesn't eat us. So we use all our resources to survive, and fawning is a very adaptive resource. So you will see it in humans and you'll see it in dogs, but being in threatened states, whether you're fawning, freezing, fighting, or flight, is not healthy for our nervous system. It creates a lot of mental ill health comorbidities in humans and in dogs, and high levels of cortisol throughout the day, all sorts of things. If a child is fawning to survive at school, for example, then a child is in a threatened state and that is damaging to their healthy system of their body.
Cam Barclay:We see it um a lot with uh shelter animals. So, in my current role, um I work with uh post-adoption clients. So these are clients that have adopted from a shelter. Um, obviously, in the shelter we do the required assessments and they're quite vigorous and thorough. Um, however, the shelter is a stressful place for a lot of dogs. And in the shelter, some of these dogs may be, you know, leaning on some of these more uh adaptive responses, whatever they may be. And one of those is just being in a shutdown state, staying in your kennel, laying low, hoping nothing bad happens and you'll be fine. Um, they go out to the home and everything looks great, and maybe even in the meet and greet with the client, um, you know, potentially they're in that freeze or fawn state, probably the fawn state, and people say, Oh, this dog's great, it's absolutely lovely. What, you know, just easy. They get into the home and invariably, you know, after what, you know, how long's a piece of string, but it might be two weeks, three weeks, four weeks into the process, maybe shorter, and um make contact with us and say, Well, hang on a second. Now the dog is jumping, lunging, barking, growling at dogs, maybe, you know, uh responding to their children or something to that effect. Um, and it and it goes leads into what Ned was sort of talking about around adapting. Um, and having a chat with Ned over the last uh couple of weeks, you know, that can be um sort of the way the model hierarchy sort of works, in that you you can go into freeze and then fawn. Um, and then after a while, as you maybe build up a little bit more confidence or you feel a little bit safer, maybe then you go into that sort of flight or fight uh sort of mode in the model. And um it's a really common thing, and people sit there and say, There's something wrong with my dog. And often I will go out and see the client and I'll say, Well, actually, your dog is on the right path, they're going in the right direction here. You're actually seeing behavior here.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, that's um that's something that we also notice with with children. So uh Deb Dana uh kind of simplifies the model using a kind of ladder, Gary. So you're moving up and down the ladder of these fight, flight-freeze responses, and freezing is kind of down the bottom of the ladder. And you have to move up the ladder to get to more adaptive responses, like what we call your ventral vagal system, where you're in connection. We just call it connection. Connection would be the optimal goal, and to get there, you you must move the to these five fight or flight um experiences in the body, and that is um part of the process. And so when you see when I see a child that has moved from my assessment, is that they are quite frozen, almost getting uh maybe a diagnosis of depression, they're not leaving their bedroom or their couch, and then we work with them, or a team works with them, and they start to come out of their room, and they're maybe throwing things in the classroom, and maybe there's some aggression or swearing and things like that. I see that as a good sign. They're moving up the ladder, so we're moving in the right direction. And you might notice that with dogs, I imagine.
Cam Barclay:Absolutely, yeah. We see we see that um quite often. I mean, you met my dog Mookie this morning, and he's a prime example of that, yeah, in the sense that in the shelter, um, very much shut down in his pen. Um, when you open the pen, um, he did go into sort of that hyper arousal state around people. Hyper arousal, um, and then when he's back in the pen, very much laying low at the back of the pen. Um, but we saw him sort of move part move through that ladder or that hierarchy um when he moved into our home. And actually, um one day, about uh probably three months after fostering Mookie, we took him back to the shelter um because he he needed to have some vaccination work, and he moved back into that shutdown state. And I still remember the the the the shelter workers there who are fantastic and they they understand dogs mainly, mostly great handlers. Um, but they were sort of praising me on such a great job. They were like, Look at this dog, you fixed Mookie, he's great. I looked at Mookie and he was shut down. He was he was he was completely fearful, could see it in his eyes, um, and he just essentially wasn't moving. So it's interesting the perception of this behavior, even by people who have who have an understanding of dogs. Yeah, yeah.
Nerida Barclay:So that the yeah, the misconception would be that I guess that if if someone's if a child's in a free state, they're not uh expressing, and the problem isn't transferring to other people. So the agitation isn't transferring, so they're not throwing things, they're not swearing, so it's kind of a more manageable state, and these kids often get overlooked, but living a life, it's about living a quality life. That should be our goal as uh therapists to help dogs and and humans with quality life, and being in a numbed, out frozen state is not a quality life.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, I just had a revelation. I think I was one of those kids. I was always shy, and I think that's the word that people use when the child is actually shut down, scared to talk to people, good student, but really in like a functional freeze state. And I think a lot of people, like they do with dogs, they actually like it because you don't see any misbehaving, you don't see any big expression of energy or emotions. And so it I think it is easy to overlook. And it is also confusing for people that the dog, and I imagine with the child also, as you explained, that we have to move them through these different levels of the ladder and through these different states to achieve real true healing. So I always have to tell people that I'm working with your dog may seem worse after we start the training, because what I'm doing with dogs is not necessarily training for obedience. I'm kind of like giving them therapy, and so I'm allowing them to express all that previously repressed or suppressed energy, the fight-flight energy. And so I look at it as a good sign, like a dog who's normally perfect in their crate, so to speak. All of a sudden they're trying to break out of the crate, they're chewing off their harness, they're pulling the blankets in and like chewing up all their bedding. And like to me, that's fight energy. You know, they finally have enough vital life force to now start fighting. I'm like, oh, this is great. But of course, the owner is really irritated because before the dog was perfect in the crate, and now they're ripping everything up and breaking out of the crate. And I'm telling them they have to get a more expensive crate to keep the dog in. Uh, but it's actually really good. So it's exactly what you said, Cam. Um you know, when you start seeing those behaviors, you know things are moving in the right direction. But uh I think culturally as a society, we prefer to see less energy. Um so yeah, it can be very confusing. Uh, I would love to hear a little bit more about the shelter dogs and how long do you think it takes them to actually decompress and show their true emotions?
Cam Barclay:Long does it take? Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's tricky, it's tricky to know. Like if we think about um dogs, they've been artificially selected for a purpose, uh, different breeds, you know, different groupings of the breeds. Um, so very much depending on that, that that can be a determinant of how quickly they adapt to the shelter. Um, but then obviously every dog is an individual, uh, so it's hard to know how long it's going to take. Um, some dogs, let's be honest about it, some dogs don't make it through, right? Um, but then we see some dogs that are sort of these uh sort of, I guess, guardian breeds who have been bred to be a little bit wary of people or a lot wary of people and and other and other things. Um, it can take some you know longer for them to adapt. Um, we do see a lot of these sort of staffy breeds come into the shelter. Generally speaking, I would say they do adapt relatively well. However, it may present differently in the sense that you know um possibly uh this sort of breeding for intensity and courageousness and all these sorts of things and um affiliation with people rather than going into that sort of flight state, which some of them do, of course, but sorry, that that um that freeze state, which some of them do, of course, uh they may sort of more go into that sort of hyper arousal state, right? Even if they do have a bit of uh anxiety or you know, social anxiety about being in the shelter with the other dogs and things of that nature, um, they do sort of move into that uh hyper arousal state. So, Leah, I think it's a it's a difficult uh question to answer. It's just is very much dependent on the individual dog. I know um early on when I was working with these dogs, uh, myself and the and the staff, would sort of approach a lot of these dogs with more of an operant sort of mindset. That would be, you know, get out the clicker, let's do some reps, let's do some work with the dog. Um but the longer we do it, we we've done it, and uh the more consultation we've had with actual behaviorists. And I do want to make the point that I am a trainer, I know a lot about behavior, um, but I work with people who are certified and qualified behaviorists, and there is a difference, right? Um, so you know, when we're approaching this from the mindset of, you know, how can we help this dog? What is actually happening with their emotional state? Um perhaps if we can look at it through the lens of, you know, what state, what, what, um, what position in the hierarchy uh are they in, um, then we can really help these dogs. And a lot of the training, as you mentioned before, is not so much about this sort of opera training, it's more around getting to know the dog and helping them to feel safe. That's where it starts.
Leah Lykos:Okay, perfect. My number one thing is always safety because when the dog starts to feel safe, we can start unraveling these emotions and guiding them constructively to show us fight-flight energy. Like I do a lot of tug work with dogs, I teach them to bark on command. We get out and we get plenty of exercise. And if I can, like let them on a long line or like in a fenced yard to zoom, they can express that flight energy. Um, so yeah, and that was kind of a question that I get so much from clients. They always want to know how long is it gonna take? And I always say the same thing. Uh, it's really difficult to answer, and it depends on the dog. It always depends on the individual dog. So um, I think that was perfect. And yeah, just on that same topic of like encouraging the dog to kind of feel safe, to develop trust, and then to feel free to express some of those emotions. I'm wondering, Ned, if you have a parallel with people, do you actually encourage children in any way to like constructively express when they start moving up that polyvagal ladder?
Nerida Barclay:Oh, definitely. I'd say in every single one of my plans, children and adults, you've got a co-regulation because I I work a lot with support teams and families, and if um developing connection to our emotions, naming our feelings is a big part of that, and um tracking our feelings in our bodies, but a lot of people cannot do that, even if you ask them to. So it's also about co-regulation. So being able to name my feelings, being able to track my breath in my body, and regulating with the child or the adult is so important to help theirs mirror neurons for them to start to socially connect with me and then um mirror what I'm doing. And that repetition, like you do, like I see um dog trainers do the repetition is so important. It sometimes gets actually missed when I'm putting plans in. Often teachers say, Well, we're doing the strategies, but the repetition it can take years for some of the people that I'm working with, I work in the disability sector as well. So it can take years of this repetitive modeling of how to regulate, and yeah, hopefully that's a that's a decent example of it.
Cam Barclay:I might just jump in there because going back to some of the work we we do in the shelter, um, we you know, we found that predictability patterns and routine was so effective with some of these dogs, you know, just something to be able to hang their hat on to say, hey, I'm confined in this um sort of pen all day, but at least once a day at around the same time, hopefully, in the morning you're fed, and around the same time a familiar face will arrive and we'll go through something very familiar. We know exactly what's going to happen next. We're gonna come out of the pen, we're going to do some enrichment on the way out of the pen. We're going to move to a yard, and in that yard, it's pretty much a safe zone, right? Um, we've got some enrichment stations there. Depending on the dog, um, either they will just have free range of the yard to interact with the various stations, or for some other dogs, it may be more useful for them to have something that is very structured. So it's like enrichment station one, two, three, four, and then you go to your lickey mat. And then often we'll see, um, I can't tell you how many times, you just get sort of this shake off and this kind of sigh of relief. The dog's just like, all right, cool, okay, cool. Now, now we're ready. Um, and that is often a state that we can kind of train in. We can actually do some work there once once they've passed through that. So, to your point, Nera, that that sort of um that repetition and that routine is is so important with dogs.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, it's creating predictability, which is the opposite of uncertainty. And uncertainty, if I'm uncertain, if I'm already feeling unsafe in my body, and then I'm in an environment that's uncertain, that compounding um threat from internal and then uncertainty, it's just too much. You know, uncertainty leads to anxiety, right? So predictability creates safety. I find out when I'm being fed, when I'm being walked, who's going to come, what those footsteps are my trusted person. I can relax in my body. I can relax in my body, then I'm not cycling through states of threat.
Cam Barclay:Yes, absolutely. And even this morning, Ned, we saw an example of that, because it's quite unusual for a guest to arrive at 6 30 in the morning, like I'm not even awake yet. And um, for Mookie in the yard to have an unfamiliar person in the house, that's that's quite uh strange for him. So you would have noticed that when you arrived, Mookie barked a few times. That's a fear response. Um, he's a lot improved since 18 months ago. But we cycled through. I went out into the yard and I cycled through his enrichment stations. I took him away from the back and we we worked through one, two, three to his enrichment stations. I took him into his bungalow. He spent some time with me, and then he came back to the house and he was just in a in a much better state to you know potentially interact with you.
Nerida Barclay:I didn't notice you did all that.
Leah Lykos:Awesome. So I'm just gonna kind of like summarize as we go, like the main points. I think we've touched on safety, which uh creating predictability and patterns are part of creating safety. Safety creates trust. Trust allows us to co-regulate. So, in terms of, you know, with people, co-regulating with other people, talking about our emotions and identifying emotions. Um, and also I'm sure, you know, like making sure that you are feeling regulated and calm when you're trying to hold space and help somebody else, um, so they can kind of use you as that touchstone. And that is something I try to do with my dogs. Of course, I'm not always perfectly regulated because I'm a normal human being, not a robot. Um, but I do think there are ways that we can help co-regulate with our dogs. And sometimes my dogs are the ones who are more calm than I am, and I use them to help me get back into a desired state. And so I have been doing a lot of like breath work and um you know teaching for myself, but then also like teaching the dog to bark on command, but then getting them to quiet bark and then bringing that down even to a breath. Um, and then touch is very important in the way that I touch my dogs, like I'm actually massaging them, and that brings a lot of regulation. And then another point I want to bring up because I think this is relevant to the dogs and the humans, is that play is such an important part of co-regulating, and I don't want to get too technical, like trying to explain what ventral vagal is, like in detail, but that uh socially connected state. I think play is a great way to encourage that, and that's one of the biggest challenges I have working with my human clients, because I'm not a professional therapist, is like, how do I get this person to feel playful so that the dog can then mirror them and feel safe enough to play or feel that playful energy? So I think either of you could address that. Like, how do we get people or dogs into that playful state?
Nerida Barclay:When you're describing some of the challenges with dogs and owners, of course, when I'm working with children, if you can do all the healing support with the child, but if their primary caregiver is also feeling anxious and stressed, overwhelmed, or in a threat um response themselves, it's not really got it's not going to work very well. So yes, encouraging um play and healing for the parent is just as important and actually should be done first. One of the things that you commonly see is is a ball being thrown back and forth. I I've seen this in in um to some training with Bessel Band Bande Colt videos of just a ball being thrown back and forth, creating reciprocity, and it's a simple act that a parent and a child all knows how to do, and the therapist just encouraging this simple act, and then suddenly you see the child laughing and the parent laughing, and it's a way of encouraging play through the embodiment of physical activity of it. Well, I'm I'm not sure if that's something that I imagine that's something to try and as well.
Cam Barclay:Absolutely it is, yeah, it is. Um as we were talking through that, I just had some flashbacks of some of the clients that I have worked with, and I'm not qualified to make this assessment, but you know, some of some of the um some of the guardians do come across as anxious in their own in their own self. And these are some of the cases that I've struggled with, that sort of co-regulation with their dog and trying to sort of set up, you know, some activities or some things that they can do together. And you know, I've sort of got this lens on the dog as opposed to the person. And I think it can be helpful um just sort of reflecting on my own work to perhaps promote play as a first step and just something very basic like what you're talking about. Maybe it's just a game of tug at home in a familiar environment, no distractions, forget about the big wide world out there and you know all the stuff going on out there. Let's just play a bit of tug with the dog. Let's just get to know the dog in a familiar environment. Then perhaps as you progress, you can uh start to add distractions as you go. Um, but it's certainly something that um I should focus on more. Um, it's something I've I've thought about. Um but I think to your point, Leah, you know, it can be a challenging role because we've we've got that lens both on the dog and secondarily on the person, but perhaps that should shift to it should be a more um a more even uh sort of uh an even perspective on the person and the dog and meet them both where they're at.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, yeah. I think I think that's really interesting. I can always say there is no healing in isolation, there is healing through connection, and the dog and the owner would just have this incredible bond that you would want to develop that kind of co-regulation, that healing and connection together. Um it's something that's uh allows you talking about the dog shaking, it allows movement through the body that is uh healthy or adaptive rather than threat responses that are occurring through the body, an arousal response, like a fight response. You're creating arousal through jumping around and playing that's actually regulating the nervous system to safety. Yeah, um, I've heard it described kind of like an aeroplane taking off. So you kind of want to match where the person or the animal is at. So if they're hyper-aroused, you don't want to just be like, let's breathe and meditate, it won't work. You kind of need to match them. And play is a beautiful way to match them. Let's run around, let's play basketball. What are you into? Let's move our bodies. And uh, that is just incredibly important healing system.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, that's really interesting what you're saying, because early, early on in my own personal healing journey, I was looking to do a lot of meditation. And uh, you know, I did touch on the breath work, which I do work on a lot now, but in the beginning, I was sitting still and I was trying to meditate and uh control my breath so that I would be calm. And it actually agitated me to the point where I think it was counterproductive because I wasn't I wasn't well versed in all these different nervous system states, and I wasn't actually like matching myself where I was, like I really needed to express energy. Um, so kind of forcing myself into just being calm all the time, which I thought was the answer, uh actually made it worse. And I think we do that with our dogs sometimes. So I love that you just brought up movement and also matching the client, whether it's a dog or a human, where they're at. Because if you're trying to, I'll just talk from my perspective since I work with dogs. If I have a dog that's extremely reactive and kind of in a state where they're over threshold, they're in fight or flight, and then I'm asking them to simply sit and look at me, like that whole thing, it's not a bad protocol at all, but it just depends on the dog and it depends on the state that they're in. But that is actually a suppression of that fight-flight energy. And so I would much prefer to like run down the street with them, bring the tug toy out, have them push for food, or do something that's matching that state of activation that they're in. And I think that also creates a lot of trust because then the dog sort of understands that like you get them kind of like that you understand where they're at. Um, and I don't want to anthropomorphize too much with the dogs, but it does create trust and safety, even if it looks a little chaotic because I'm matching the dog's state of arousal, kind of, if that makes sense.
Cam Barclay:Yeah, it does. It does make sense. The the the challenging thing with this, and Ned, you might be able to elaborate uh more from a from a technical perspective. Sometimes when we're working with dogs that have perhaps um, you know, up to up till being in the shelter or working with a trainer or or a person, um, have had a sheltered life. So maybe they've been stuck in one yard and one room. Um, maybe they haven't had much social interaction with people or even with dogs. You know, we do get some dogs that have they've never played before, they don't know how to play. You pull out a tug toy, they don't know what to do. They the the hyper arousal kicks in and they start jumping, nipping, mouthing, or maybe they have a fear response, and you know, um maybe that sort of an escape avoidance sort of behavior kicks in. So to your point, Ned, I think you were talking about just it could be as simple as just rolling a ball, you know, just rolling a ball over there, seeing what they do, you know, and and starting from there. Um, so I think with play, um, I know that when we were talking about this podcast, Leah, um, because of the I guess the the types of dogs that I um often come into contact with, either through the shelter or with private clients. Sometimes they've seen a few a few uh trainers already who are perhaps more um sort of uh balance trainers or opera trainers, you know, um, and they come to me and they've they've tried all these techniques, they've tried all these training techniques, and I'm sort of like, let's take it back to to ground zero and let's just sort of find out what the dog likes. What can you do? Um, and we're trying to keep the dog under threshold where possible, um, and then just try to work them up to it, if that makes sense. So I think it you know that's what makes our our our job so tricky sometimes, Lair, is that there's no one size fits all. We can't just say, hey, let's play some tug because Tug toy, playing tug with a dog that's never played tug before is in hyperarousal, that can lead to displacement behavior or even aggression. So we've got to take it, we've got to take it really gradually and really slowly. Yes, play is the answer, but it has to be done in a constructive co-regulatory way. Yeah.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, and I was listening to one of your previous podcasts, Leah, and I really I it was and talking about um tug and uh throwing repetitively, throwing a ball, and I really, really appreciated listening to that perspective of it and thinking about some of the young people I'm working with, where they can run and play rugby for hours and hours and hours and hours, and isn't that great? But actually having stretch and movement breaks and water, and it's so important to be moving uh to different states and allowing um more wholesome states because if you're in that kind of hyper-roused play state constantly, you're burning out, you're burning yourself out, you are depleting yourself of so many things that you need. And so actually, our natural states are moving from you know, we we work and then we get home and we relax, you know. So we're moving states all the time. It's all adaptive, freezing is adaptive, it's it conserves energy. We zone out quite a bit, especially when we're doom scrolling, you know. So all these things are really important, but what's what's I I think is really important to the assessment is is are we is the child or the person shifting through different states throughout the day? And can we encourage that in a really healthy way? Using things that the child really likes, what is their interest? If it's rugby, can we incorporate breathing and stretch because they love rugby as a routine? And so, yeah, when you're talking about the the dogs that like tug or they like you know, you've got to assess what is in their wheelhouse and their interest areas, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Cam Barclay:And the other challenging thing is um, I'm just going to throw it in there, you know, with with dogs, the predatory motor sequence, that kind of and and we do see that um sort of um predatory drift sometimes as well. So just throwing all these other factors depending on the breed and depending on the individual, um, you know, you you pull out a tug toy, and if you see that look in the dog's eye where they're sort of moving into that predatory behavior, probably best to put the tug toy away. Um, if if that could potentially you know escalate uh to aggression or something like that. Um, so all these all this sort of play and interaction with the dog, um, particularly for dogs that are a little bit uh inverted commas tricky or complex, um, it just needs to be tempered and done with care.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, but I really appreciate your post where sometimes you are inviting that um predatory behavior in a way where, but it's in a safe, kind of playful way where they're shaking, they're digging, they're like chewing up sticks and just allowing the dog to express its range of things that dogs do.
Cam :Yeah, yeah.
Nerida Barclay:And I I even if it is predatory, but then assessing where that might lead to escalations. But yeah, I love that about your post that you allow dogs to be dogs, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, and um try to play out the safe part of the predatory motor sequence when out on the street.
Cam Barclay:So if seeing a possum or a squirrel in the US Lea, um, if seeing a squirrel, you know, rather than you know chasing, biting, killing, consuming, all this sort of stuff, which is not safe in 2025 in urban areas. Um, it's more about just watching, watching the animal um from distance. So I know we've deviated off topic a bit uh there, Leah. It'd be good if you can get us back on track.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, that's totally fine. I love to let the conversation just wander wherever it wants to. Uh, you know, I do appreciate what you're saying, Cam. And we I I probably should have prefaced this whole conversation with, you know, we are not giving training advice. And I would not advise somebody in a shelter setting like a volunteer, just like whip out a tug toy with a dog you don't know, because they can very quickly go into that hyper-aroused state where they might redirect on you. And I do know of a case, I just recently spoke to a volunteer where this happened. She wasn't playing tug, but she was playing fetch with a dog. He just got over aroused and redirected on her, and it was quite a dangerous situation. So I think, you know, we should just put a little disclaimer that like we are not advising people how to train or rehabilitate dogs in general, but specifically ones that you're not familiar with, that you don't know their history, you don't have a previous relationship with. Um, so yeah, we do want to try and keep things on the calmer side as we get to know the dog and develop a relationship. Um and kind of on that same theme, I do like my training sessions to kind of have an arc where like we start out with some engagement in a low arousal state. And then I do like the dog to express some energy at some point so they can kind of uh know that it's safe to do so, that that I'm I'm okay with them expressing energy, and and then at the end of the session, kind of bring them back down and maybe like end with a massage or maybe some scatter feeding, so that like as Ned was pointing out, we don't want to stay stuck in any one state for too long. It's okay to move through those states, and it's actually really important in growing our emotional capacity and the emotional capacity of our dogs that for the most part we keep them within their window of tolerance and then move them through these different states.
Cam Barclay:Absolutely. Yeah, well said, yeah.
Leah Lykos:Does that make sense for people as well?
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, like I think you said no, there's no one one size fits all. I think if if you're working with reactive, highly reactive traumatized um people or animals, then you would want to seek uh therapeutic support and counsel around it because going in with generalized training or things that you might read about kids on the internet won't necessarily work and needs a really formal assessment. And some of these things you're trying out should be done within environments that are safe for the the child and the animal with relationships that are highly attuned for them. So an owner that is very tuned in to recognize the signs because, as you said, an escalate, an arousal state, it's it's it's similar, it's you're in the same vague or nervous system state whether you're aroused chasing a ball can quickly flick into maybe lunging or biting. So knowing when to move up and then maybe bring it down and um oscillate or pendulate through those states regularly. I love Leah that you're in a session you try and and and work through it like a kind of a menu of different states of being for the dog, and that's probably so helpful for the their owners to see how um calm that can make the dog.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, I'm wondering, this is really my brain's working now. I'd love to somehow create a workshop or something where we kind of help people to get educated on this polyvagal ladder so that when they are working with their own dog whom they have a relationship with and they feel comfortable bringing moving them through these different states, um, that they're just well informed and also that they become curious about their own states. Like I've noticed lately, I do tend to get very stuck in a free state, whether I'm scrolling or watching Netflix. It's just really, really hard for me to change states. Once I get up and start moving, I feel great. It's not that I don't want to move, but something in my body is telling me to conserve energy. And so I think part of building this emotional flexibility into the dog is helping them transition between these states. And I do see a lot of dogs actually with the opposite problem. They get stuck in this hyper-aroused state where they're kind of like addicted to this stimulation of playing all the time or constantly having, you know, looking out the window and barking at passers by. Like that could even be something that they just get addicted to almost, and they don't know how to relax. So yeah, I think we need to let people know there's no quick fix and there's no one thing that's going to fix the dog. Like just playing isn't going to fix the whole issue, you know, it's a piece of the puzzle. And then on the same side of that is just teaching the dog to be calm or this kind of buzzword of neutrality that I see in the dog training world. That's great to work on, but just teaching neutrality is again one piece of the puzzle. It's not addressing the full spectrum of emotions that our dogs are having. Um so I don't know, Cam, if you want to speak to that with like helping dogs relax down out of that hyper-arouse state.
Cam Barclay:Yeah, so I've got uh firsthand experience that uh of that um with my dog Mookie, who I keep mentioning, because as we had this conversation, just Mookie just keeps resonating because I've been in the trenches with Mookie for 18 months. And if you look at Mookie now, he does come across in this environment in our yard at home as you know, quote unquote, a normal dog. Um, however, when the foot the first night he arrived from the shelter and I actually took him to my parents' place initially, I have never seen an animal or a person in a more stressed state. He was jumping around erratically, he was nipping at my clothing, he was pooing and peeing everywhere. He would was just had an inability to regulate. Um, and this went on for 10 hours, and it wasn't until 5 a.m. in the morning that he lay down on his side, absolutely exhausted, um, heavy panting, and he and he finally fell asleep. And within one hour, he was he was awake again and back to his erratic behavior. It was unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it. Um so I guess that has been a journey over the last 18 months, and a lot of the work that we did was really transitioning from you know medium intensity activities. Um, we couldn't go into high-intensity activities like fetch or tug or anything like that because that his hyper arousal would just go through the roof. Um, but we're really uh transitioning from those type of activities more into, I guess in the training industry we'd call calming protocols, you know, going onto your mats, you know, having um trying to get that physiological response where perhaps if he splays out his legs or he lays down on his side, we can reinforce that, maybe not with high value treats, but you know, something something medium range, and just kind of moving between that state into a more medium intensity state and just um just just working through that and trying to keep his arousal low, lower where possible. Um, and then on top of that, we sprinkle on some kind of training, um, which which he tends to enjoy. So look, um, yeah, everything you everything you say. Um, you know, I've lived it with a lot of shelter animals, um, uh shelter dogs. Um, the other thing I'd sort of mention that seems obvious, but I do think it gets overlooked with a lot of uh guardians and also with trainers is scenting work. Get the dog scenting, like somehow just do some of these scenting activities, get their nose in the ground. It can be as simple as just throwing treats out into the grass, right? Just you know, just seek, you know, throw throw some treats out, sprinkle some treats out, get the dog activating that seeking system, get them using their nose. Um, and then you know, you can move into that to maybe some more calming stuff on a mat, and then maybe some more medium intensity activities and things like that. But to your point, Leah, that sort of transitioning from one to the other, um, where we're working on that sort of impulse control, um, you're building a relationship with the dog, and a lot of co-regulation is happening at the same time. Um, and going back to a point you mentioned earlier, it's important that we're in the right mental state as well. Because so many times, and I'll be honest, I'm a trainer, and but I'm a person who can be reactive. I've got a short fuse, right? You know, in certain situations. So I don't want to be working with Mookie and walk out the door and Mookie starts jumping on me and nipping me. And I'll be honest, this has happened before, and I've turned around and said, piss off Mookie, buzz off, and you're stomped on the ground, right? So it's really important that we're self-reflective, um, whatever works for you, to get you in a state where you can work with your dog, and it's going to be a meaningful and positive uh training session. If you're not in that state of mind, work on yourself. Go inside, read a book, do what you've got to do, and then just come back later. Um, because I think some of the challenges we have with that co-regulation we talk about and just that relationship is there seems to be this kind of um push-pull effect with the person and with the dog that every interaction they have, we're not really looking at the positives. We're not saying, hey, my dog's now laying on a mat. Why don't I just drop him a treat and just walk off? You know, we're sort of only seeing that the dog's jumping on me, he's nipping me, right? So I'm gonna like tell him to buzz off and swipe at his head, and that tends to be this sort of vicious cycle that happens. So yeah, this co-regulation that we talk about, and just um, yeah, working on yourself and and training in a in a state where it's uh beneficial for both the person and the dog.
Nerida Barclay:Because we're highly reactive too, yeah. You know, we've got nervous systems too, and give us an agitation like a barking dog or dog in the way or something, you know, we we react. But we we we really should be do everything we can to regulate when we have we're working with mammals that have experienced trauma because that's how they're going to learn to regulate.
Cam :Yeah, yeah.
Nerida Barclay:Um, and that that experience that you have of um, I can't remember.
Cam Barclay:Well, I was I was I was gonna say as well. So, my you know, I'm I'm a professional trainer. My partner um is not a professional trainer, um, she's just quite a nurturing and and and she's good with dogs, right? She's quite a calm presence around dogs. And I think because Mookie has this kind of learned history with me through the shelter, and perhaps when he first arrived at my home uh at our house, yes, I've done a lot of work in in helping him from a training perspective, but I notice when he is with uh my partner Sue Lin now, he's calmer generally than he is with me, right? Because we do have this learned history. So whilst I've facilitated Vuki to be in this in this state where he's able to be around people and all this sort of thing, just generally because of her, because of Sul Lyn's demeanor, um he's a bit calmer around her. So I think there's something in that.
Nerida Barclay:Is there also less pressure? Like for you, there's there's this pressure to learn and to grow, which is great, but for her, there's just no pressure.
Cam Barclay:Yeah. I think so. Yeah, I think so. I'm not sure um if if you've got a view on that, Leah, with some of the clients that you've worked with, or perhaps your own dogs.
Leah Lykos:Oh, yeah. My dogs will even be way calmer. Like if I leave them for a weekend and they just are with my dog sitter. This has happened like two or three times with different dog sitters and even my sister watching my dogs. I come home and I think the dogs are like comatose or something. I'm like, are my dogs okay?
Cam Barclay:And it's like, are you sure they're not giving them medication just to talk over? No, yeah.
Leah Lykos:They just are so much more relaxed with somebody who they don't have history with, there's no pressure. Um, and they just kind of like hang out all weekend, where like, I think, well, one, I think they're mirroring my nervous system, which is a little more intense and energetic than maybe these people that I choose to have care for them. Um, and we also have a lot of emotional baggage with our own dogs. Uh, I do think our dogs come into our lives to sometimes trigger that baggage and make us aware of it. So we're obviously gonna have a different relationship with our own dogs than our dogs have with other people, even your partner who is one of the caretakers of your dog, the relationship dynamic is just different. Um and, you know, there's pluses and minuses to all that. Um, but yeah, it's just really interesting to be able to reflect on it and become self-aware. Like, am I representing stress to my dogs? Am I doing too much with my dogs? Like, am I amping them up? Um are we doing too much work, even too much intense play? You know, like I think it's it's all very complicated and also very interesting to look at.
Nerida Barclay:So I recall what I was gonna say, it was about um where where we more wired to notice when things are going wrong than when things are going right. And that's something that really resonates with my work, and one thing that I try and teach from the start when I notice a child taking steps in the right direction, so even though every now and then They're still using aggression, they're still hitting, or they're still stealing, or whatever those behaviors might be. They've actually reduced it. So part of the asset, the comprehensive assessment of the behaviors, if I can show and track and say, actually, these are reducing, then I make the point of saying this child should be getting a trophy. I mean, it's it's a lot easier to paint a nice picture or to get an A in an exam than it is to learn to regulate emotion. And some of the results, and it's a child going to school 50% of the time, now going to school 98% of the time. There's still behaviors there. And that's all we're talking about because that's all everyone's bringing to the meeting. But we really need to put that on a pedestal for that child and just let them know that this is hard work and this is incredible. And then also for the team around the child to pat themselves on the back and say, we are moving in the right direction. There is no magic wand, especially in the disability sector that I work with. There isn't a magic wand that's just going to take the disability away. So if we're seeing the child's working hard and the parents working hard and we're all working hard, then let's celebrate that.
Cam :Yeah.
Nerida Barclay:And yeah, I imagine that can happen where you have um maybe owners saying, well, the the dog's ripping up things or the dog's doing this. Yeah, but how do how are we measuring success here?
Cam Barclay:Yeah. Yeah. You made me think about um the some of the shelter assessments. And I know there's a focus in the shelter assessment on a problem list. So there's some information in there that will say background history, and then there's a risk assessment, and then there's a recommendation for the dog and training plan and all this sort of thing. But often when it moves through the process and other eyes look at that assessment, they'll sort of focus on the problem list. So it's a bunch of problems, and it's not necessarily representative of you know the progress that you've made or some of the positive factors around the dog. Because the dog can have a wrap list of problems, but then you know, some of the positives that you're moving on sort of get overlooked. And to your point now, I think that happens with um guardians of dogs as well, because it is triggering when your dog rips up the couch and barks at the neighbor's dog and things like that. And these are the things that resonate. And when they talk, sit down and talk to a professional or maybe to other people about their dog, that's what they focus on. Um, so it is important to, I mean, one of the most important things or the most important thing when I'm meeting with a client is the history. So before meeting the history, I collect as as uh before meeting the client, I collect as much history as possible. And I do sort of focus on what are three things that you'll that are good about your dog.
Cam :Right?
Cam Barclay:What are the three things that are great about your dog? And it's something I try and focus on now when I meet the client as well. And you can see their eyes light up. They go, well, actually, you know, Fido, he's really nice with other dogs, he's cool with other dogs, and they and they list them out and they sort of they sort of go, actually, Fido's Fido's alright, he's got a few issues, but but Fido's pretty good, right? Yeah. Um, and by collecting collecting this history, it's not so much focused on you know the problem list or the issues, um, but it allows us to get a clearer picture of what the dog's actually like, and it helps me because I'm only getting a window of time. I can assess the dog for an hour and a half, whatever the case is. The dog can meet my my dog Mike. Mike's a lovely dog, he can do well with my dog Mike, and then he can meet Bo, and maybe he can do quite well with Bo as well. But history is the most important thing. Um, but I guess that sort of balanced history, the goods and the bads.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah. Yeah, and and by doing that, you also sounds like you're building connection between them. Because if we're seeing a dog or a child as a negative force in our life, and we're reacting to that negativity, we can't regulate and start to heal with them. But if we build one of the first things I do is build compassion in team and the other person because they're like, and he does this, and he does that, and then he threw a stapler at my head, and you know, you're like really going, these are the list of the things that the child is is is happening inside their bodies that you can't see, that they're grappling with every day, and this is why that's happening. And let's start with compassion. And studies show that when we build compassion and connection, we get better outcomes, we get less behaviors, but most importantly, we we are able to have better quality of life.
Cam Barclay:Compassion, connection, and understanding often, often, you know, it's your point, Lair, it's the cases that I'm looking at these days, it's really not so much about training. It's it's really about understanding and it's about management and it's about having the tools to respond when these things happen, or setting things up so that these you know occurrences don't happen in the first place. So often that sort of understanding, saying, sitting there and saying, Hey, you've you have a rescue dog, we maybe don't know quite know its history, but we know it's probably come from a tumultuous sort of background, right? So that might be a factor. You have a particular breed in front of you, right? You have a whatever it might be, a German shepherd in front of you. You know, there may be a genetic component to this. Um, you know, that's environmental factors, you know, at home, sitting on your couch, fine, watching Netflix, your dog's fine, but then you introduce a rock wheel at 20 meters. We know that environmental um factors are going to influence behavior. Um, and I suppose the last thing, um, and I'm going off Kim Brophy's model here around the legs model. Um, the last thing would be self. So every dog is an individual, every dog is going through their own journey. Obviously, they're a sentient animal. Um, they're going to go through changes, underlying medical conditions are a huge factor. Um, we always get clients to check that first. Is there something going on under the covers? You know, um, is there uh pain or discomfort that's happening here? And also the age of the breed, of course, right? A younger dog going through development, you know, neuroplasticity, lots of changes, things are happening all the time, um, all the way up to a more elderly dog where there might be neurological factors that are that are creeping in. So um just getting back on on task, understanding. So often spending an hour and a half with the client and just doing a little bit of work with the dog, but saying, hey, this is un this is what's going on with your dog, you know, this this is this is potentially why your dog is doing what they're doing. And sometimes the penny drop drops for the client, they're going, cool. Now that I understand it, I kind of know what to do, right? So yeah, it's always an interesting uh journey.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah. When I write behavior, in two of my current working behavior plans, I have a one of the goals, the SMART goals, is around is the person smiling? That isn't always a goal I would recommend for everyone, because of course we've talked about form in in the earlier part of this podcast. However, for these particular people, it has seemed to be that that is an indicator that they are happier and relaxed and safe, and they've started smiling more. So put that as a goal rather than is the goal that they are behaving better or that they have a reduction in behaviours of concern. I mean, that could be a goal, but it doesn't necessarily mean that their life is better. So focusing on the person, are they smiling more? Do they look happy? Do they look relaxed? Are they safe? And if that can be an indicator, when you start from there, then I think you'll see reduction in behaviors anyway.
Cam Barclay:I think that that is a huge one, and it's something that I say to most clients, I probably should say it to all clients, but have a look at your dog and always ask the question. Just ask the question is your dog safe? And if the answer is no, you need to change something. You need to create distance, you need to go home, you need to do something else. If the answer is yes, then cool, play on.
Nerida Barclay:That's a really, really good, easy way to summarize it. Yeah.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, that's great. I'm just gonna, as I think we're gonna start to wrap up. I think we've touched on a lot of really great points. And without getting really in the weeds with the technical parts of the training or the therapy, um, I just want to kind of summarize what we just talked about. And I love, Cam, that you said you ask people what are three things they love about their dog, because I actually that's one of the questions on my intake form, because I want to know what is the connection? Like, where's the the starting point? Like, what do we appreciate and love about this dog? And then we can build on that. And I I sometimes even um it might be a little too touchy-feely for some people, but I I often ask my clients, write a letter of gratitude to your dog, especially if you have a difficult relationship with a dog because of their behavioral issues. There's so much that you're learning about dog behavior, about nervous systems, and about yourself by working with that dog. Um, so if we can pull out some of those positive things and start building that connection, I think that's a great place to start. And then we were also talking about tracking progress. And I love for my clients to video themselves training their dogs. I do this because I have to put myself out there on social media, on YouTube, but I now have comparison videos from like a year ago of me working with one of my dogs, really just doing touch without talk, which is what I call arcanine massage. And almost exactly a year later, my mind is blown with the connection that I have with this dog, how much more she was able to relax, like her emotional state and her baseline state has changed. And so I think looking at um those things are really important to keep people encouraged, uh, to keep people, you know, focused on the positive and keep that connection in the relationship.
Cam Barclay:So um and I I know I know we're I know we're wrapping up here, Leah, but it could be as simple as, yeah, taking videos, but it can also be as simple as a journal.
Cam :Yes.
Cam Barclay:We're not writing war and peace, it's just one line a day. Just put in one line a day, and retrospectively you can always refer back to that and say, hey, six months ago we've seen improvements in in these areas, right? Because progress is never linear, right? There's ups and downs, but hopefully on a long enough sort of timescale of months, you can look back and say, hey, we've made progress, things are actually going pretty good.
Leah Lykos:Yeah, and I think what Ned was saying exactly hits it home with even with the dogs, like a lot of times our goals and our expectations are very high, and we forget to look at what is the change in the in the dog's emotional state or like where they kind of rest most of the times. Are they um are they kind of spending more time in a regulated state rather than looking at can they perform these behaviors at the public park? You know what I mean? Like, which is what everyone wants to see. They want to see the dog under control, they want to see the dog performing behaviors, and they want to see them do it in really highly stimulating environments, which is like that is all great to have as a goal, but we need to look at where are we starting and what expectations are reasonable? So, yeah, tracking in a journal is a great way to do that. Um, so yeah, let's finish up and I'll just check in with you guys. Is there anything else you want to add to the conversation?
Cam Barclay:Do you want to add anything? I just want to say that was fantastic, uh Leah. So thank you for organizing that. That was really great.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, I really appreciated coming on board and uh giving a maybe a point of point of difference to the podcast. Yeah, it's it's very interesting to cross over, I think. So yeah.
Cam Barclay:Yeah, it's really interesting. Um I guess just in closing, I guess I made the point that I am a trainer, um, you know, certified trainer. I work with behaviorists, I work with uh veterin behaviorists that have been doing this for 30, 40 years. And it's really humbling for me uh to sit there and say the the amount of knowledge, right? And sometimes I sit there with the veterinary behaviorist I work with who's been doing this for I think 35 years, and sometimes she sits there and says, I don't know, but not enough research on this topic, right? And I suppose the point is when when if anyone's listening out there and you're watching social media or you're listening to a trainer online and they've got all the answers, I'd be really wary of that, right? I'd be really cautious of that, um, because it's it's important um to have that network around you um to help with these sort of things. And sometimes we don't know. We just don't know the answers. Human research is more advanced than you know, dog research, and we do lean on that sometimes where we can. Um, but we don't know everything about the human brain, do we? And behavior, right? So, you know, when you're watching these flashy trainers, I'd be more inclined to look at some of these trainers um or these behaviorists who are playing the long game, they're really trying to understand what's happening with your dog and um get in the weeds with them.
Nerida Barclay:Yeah, if it's as simple as dominance, we'll all be doing it, but it doesn't work.
Cam Barclay:We wouldn't have this podcast. Yeah.
Leah Lykos:Thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. And it has been great getting to know you just in these two, you know, short, relatively short conversations that we had. Um, but yeah, I'd love to stay in touch and maybe we can do a part two in the future.
Cam Barclay:Yeah, fantastic. Thanks so much, Lee. It's great to meet you.
Leah Lykos:Thank you guys. Take care.
